U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with what analysts say is a game-changing weapon being developed by China -- an unprecedented carrier-killing missile called the Dong Feng 21D that could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defenses of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 1,500 kilometers (900 miles).
http://www.wtnh.com/dpps/military/Chines...ce_3531409
OMG, how does the U.S. respond? We are SO indebted to China that we couldn't possibly even hint at retaliation! Could we?!! Well could we?!!! Guess this is a predicament that happens when you're enslaved!!!
Hopefully it will put a leash on US adventurism.
Lo Ves.. The Chinese own a bunch of treasury bonds.. They don't have a first mortgage on the White House. They can sell the Treasury Bonds whenever they want.. Just like anyone else.. It doesn't give them any real power over the USA, and have little choice but to buy more, or spend lots of US dollars..
(Aug 06, 2010 01:09 AM)Canadaianbird Wrote: [ -> ]Lo Ves.. The Chinese own a bunch of treasury bonds.. They don't have a first mortgage on the White House. They can sell the Treasury Bonds whenever they want.. Just like anyone else.. It doesn't give them any real power over the USA, and have little choice but to buy more, or spend lots of US dollars..
Exactly.
AK
(Aug 05, 2010 09:26 PM)Lo Ves Wrote: [ -> ]OMG, how does the U.S. respond? We are SO indebted to China that we couldn't possibly even hint at retaliation! Could we?!! Well could we?!!! Guess this is a predicament that happens when you're enslaved!!!
This is why you don't have budget cuts to the military. It also appears you don't have much faith in our military to respond. Haven't you ever used anything made in China? It usually breaks in the first ten minutes.
We have missiles that will that will hit other missiles in flight. Watched them first hand...awesome sight.
AK
Good thing I have faith in our military.
If it's made in China, it will probably suck anyway.
(Aug 06, 2010 07:49 AM)Mercy Wrote: [ -> ]Good thing I have faith in our military.
If it's made in China, it will probably suck anyway.
With a name like Dung Penga, it must suck. LOL
Russia has lots of missiles and torpedoes that would slice and dice a carrier and fleet. So if China has a few so what? The USA has plenty of munitions that would decimate any fleet on the way to Taiwan.
As far as the bonds go, if you owe someone a $1000 that is your problem, if you owe them $1000000 that is their problem . . . .
(Aug 06, 2010 01:09 AM)Canadaianbird Wrote: [ -> ]Lo Ves.. The Chinese own a bunch of treasury bonds.. They don't have a first mortgage on the White House. They can sell the Treasury Bonds whenever they want.. Just like anyone else.. It doesn't give them any real power over the USA, and have little choice but to buy more, or spend lots of US dollars..
For the sake of argument, what if China decided to sell/turn in ALL of the U.S. Treasury Bonds at the same time? What then? Just wondering!!
(Aug 06, 2010 09:02 PM)Lo Ves Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug 06, 2010 01:09 AM)Canadaianbird Wrote: [ -> ]Lo Ves.. The Chinese own a bunch of treasury bonds.. They don't have a first mortgage on the White House. They can sell the Treasury Bonds whenever they want.. Just like anyone else.. It doesn't give them any real power over the USA, and have little choice but to buy more, or spend lots of US dollars..
For the sake of argument, what if China decided to sell/turn in ALL of the U.S. Treasury Bonds at the same time? What then? Just wondering!!
We'll just print more bills.
If China decided to sell all there bonds at once, pretty much all large Chinese banks would fail in an afternoon.. The US dollar would also fall like a stone.
The way it works is this.. The Chinese ship product to the USA.. In return, they get US dollars.. Each month, they develop X amount in Billions of US dollars.. They send the dollars back to the USA in exchange for a US treasury bond. The reason they do it is because there is no return on cash.. Historically, treasury bonds paid interest..
Treasury bonds are like currency.. So if the Chinese wanted to buy a billion dollars worth of food from California, they can use the Treasury bonds to pay for the food..
If the Chinese decided to sell all the bonds at once, there would have to be a buyer.. Each bond has a due date, so wanting to sell them is fine, but expecting the US Government to cash them is not..
So China would put about $1 Trillion in bonds up for sale.. The value of the dollar would fall and the Trillion would quickly be worth billions less. China would lose billions of dollars.. The US however would not lose money, just more value.
China stopped buying US bonds to the best of there ability about a year ago.. only because the interest rates on new bonds was 0%.. This was simply because the US Government lowered interest rates to 1/4%.. To prop up its own sick economy.. Instead of buying bonds, the Chinese where taking there US cash and buying steel, aluminum, copper, oil, wood, coal.. This has caused commodity prices to rise nicely..
The whole " China holds all this US debt " is simply because China has such a huge trade surplus over the USA .. China is not a bank, they do not lend Washington money.
The reason it would so greatly damage Chinese banks is that they actually hold the bonds.. They would take the huge losses on the falling value of the paper.. They would quickly run out of liquidity, even if they sold some of the bonds.. And finally, just because China decided to sell, it does not mean someone has to buy, but many of the bonds held by Chinese banks actually hold an older and higher interest rate, so I would assume that international banks would send the US cash to China, in exchange for the bonds, rather than buy the new ones that pay 0% interest..
End of the day, China would pay the biggest price .. huge ..
Oh Mr. Bird....very impressive. It's always that old supply/demand s*&t that keeps the world revolving. It's a simplistic form of viewing things but it's the God honest truth.
This is quite interesting. Why would China want/need this capability? What hostile nation with carriers could they possibly be concerned about? Lets take a look at who has them:
United States 11
United Kingdom 2
Italy 2
India 1
Russia 1
France 1
Spain 1
Brazil 1
Thailand 1
China may well be using the age old tactic of getting their adversary to spend themselves out of existance. Worked very well for the US against the USSR. Of course The US will certainly have to respond which will do wonders for the military-industrial complex, otherwise known as the stockholders of Lockhead Martin, General Dynamics, Ratheon, et al. Escalating arms sales is another time tested way to improve the economy.
(Aug 07, 2010 01:09 AM)Canadaianbird Wrote: [ -> ]If China decided to sell all there bonds at once, pretty much all large Chinese banks would fail in an afternoon.. The US dollar would also fall like a stone.
The way it works is this.. The Chinese ship product to the USA.. In return, they get US dollars.. Each month, they develop X amount in Billions of US dollars.. They send the dollars back to the USA in exchange for a US treasury bond. The reason they do it is because there is no return on cash.. Historically, treasury bonds paid interest..
Treasury bonds are like currency.. So if the Chinese wanted to buy a billion dollars worth of food from California, they can use the Treasury bonds to pay for the food..
If the Chinese decided to sell all the bonds at once, there would have to be a buyer.. Each bond has a due date, so wanting to sell them is fine, but expecting the US Government to cash them is not..
So China would put about $1 Trillion in bonds up for sale.. The value of the dollar would fall and the Trillion would quickly be worth billions less. China would lose billions of dollars.. The US however would not lose money, just more value.
China stopped buying US bonds to the best of there ability about a year ago.. only because the interest rates on new bonds was 0%.. This was simply because the US Government lowered interest rates to 1/4%.. To prop up its own sick economy.. Instead of buying bonds, the Chinese where taking there US cash and buying steel, aluminum, copper, oil, wood, coal.. This has caused commodity prices to rise nicely..
The whole " China holds all this US debt " is simply because China has such a huge trade surplus over the USA .. China is not a bank, they do not lend Washington money.
The reason it would so greatly damage Chinese banks is that they actually hold the bonds.. They would take the huge losses on the falling value of the paper.. They would quickly run out of liquidity, even if they sold some of the bonds.. And finally, just because China decided to sell, it does not mean someone has to buy, but many of the bonds held by Chinese banks actually hold an older and higher interest rate, so I would assume that international banks would send the US cash to China, in exchange for the bonds, rather than buy the new ones that pay 0% interest..
End of the day, China would pay the biggest price .. huge ..
CB, Economics has never been my forte. I've read up on how it works and still couldn't get a grasp on who owes and owns who...until now! Also with the U.S. being so indebted how could we continue borrowing and lending? Thank you for the BEST explanation I've ever read on this whole situation. I'm seriously impressed!!!
Yeah Lo Ves...wasn't that kewl explanation???
China is selling us crap, but they are holding all their eggs in one basket.
Pescador.....can't trust those French! lol
People in the West have this image of China as being the country of crap.. Its because we import crap from China.. If you flip your lap top over, its likely that its made in either China or Malaysia .. If you have an Ipod or Iphone, its made in China. Its not all cheap rubber products or clothing.
In the 1990's .. The Russians developed what was the most lethal anti ship missile in the world.. probably still is.. Its called the Moscit.. Its flies 3 times faster than the US made Harpoon and has a 250KM range.. It also flies 50 feet above the waves and due to its flight pattern and speed, its enormously hard to shoot down..
Russia sold the Moscit to the Chinese, who reverse engineered it. The difficult part of the Moscit is not the guidance system, computer chips are way fast enough to operate a missile flying Mach 2.5.. It was the heat generated by the propellant. To make the Moscit not detonate its own warhead took very hi-tech materials.. 20 years ago, Russia, Germany and the USA had an understanding of those materials.. Today, China is leading the world in developing the rare minerals needed for that technology.
The downside to the Moscit is range. Russia has sold the missile to Iran, India, China and more.. but to the USA, its only a threat if their ship gets within 250KM of the missile.. If the missile is fired in a volley, as it was designed to .. say 5-6 missiles.. A ship has a slim chance of survival.
The odds of any countries planes or ships getting within 250KM of a US carrier in times of war are thin.. So China has taken the technology and apparently extended it to 900KM.. They say the new missile will fly at Mach 10.. Lots of experts doubt it can maintain Mach 10 for 900Km..
At Mach 2.5, A carrier would have about 15 minutes to prepare if the missile was picked up on radar.. This is a missile that the USA can deal with..
The Moscit missile is a real problem for any country wanting to invade Iran.. Iran can strike any ship in the gulf.. so any warships would need to stay out of the gulf.. A warship in the Gulf would have less than 2 minutes to prepare to defeat a Moscit if fired from Iran.. If the missiles are fired in groups of 6, the odds of survival are slim.. A Moscit has enough explosive force to break the spine of any ship in the world. Iran knows as well as anyone else that you don't have to enter to gulf to attack Iran, but you cannot stop them from halting 40% of the worlds oil from reaching its destination.. That is the greatest hurdle to war with Iran.
China does not want war with the USA.. China wants dominance over parts of the globe they feel are strategic. In order to dominate, they must be a threat to any nation on earth, that includes the USA .. China will reach a place in the world where the rules simply do not apply to them.. Much the same as the USA and Russia today..
The fuss in Washington is never going to be fear of attack from China, its the realization that the day is coming that China will simply do as it pleases. That includes relations with North Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and much of Africa..